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LOWI and LOWS Traffic

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dlm4001 View Drop Down
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    Posted: August-06-2017 at 1:06pm
I am putting this here because I think my UTL is working as designed.
I have the latest update (.23), traffic sliders maxed, UTL FPR at 10 (I am getting 60+ FPS)
I see plenty of traffic at Munich.  I checked LOWW and see good traffic.
 
Can someone see what they are getting for traffic on a Monday AUG 6th at LOWI and LOWS in UTL and UT2?
On Monday the 6th at Innsbruck... The status boards are blank.  At Salzburg, traffic, but mostly business jets, some Airliners but not many.
 
Is this just the pre-release schedules are not finished?  I had UT1 years ago, and I remember good traffic at LOWI and LOWS.  I am returning to flight sim now and thought I would try UTL.  I don't regret it, but if someone could confirm LOWI and LOWS traffic in UTL verses UT2, and UT2 had a more normal amount of traffic for LOWI and LOWS,  I would buy UT2 to use while waiting for the final version of UTL schedules. 
 
1. Can someone check the LOWI and LOWS traffic with date set to Monday AUG 6th?
2.  Does anyone know if there is more traffic in UT2 for these two airports?
 
dlm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dlm4001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-06-2017 at 1:16pm
Correction
Monday, Aug 7th, 2017 for the 'check' date.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dlm4001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-06-2017 at 1:24pm
UPDATE:  I removed ORBX LOWI Static aircraft, and now I have two arrivals for the afternoon of the 7th.  two.....   that just seems really low for Innsbruck. 
 
I am considering giving UT2 a try, but would hate to buy it and find out it has not more traffic. (I know UT1 had more, I flew here all the time several years ago).
 
DM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave_YVRATC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-06-2017 at 7:20pm
The schedule in UTL goes by days of the week so it doesn't matter if it's the 6th or 7th of August as long as it's monday. The time however would be more important as there are slow periods and busy periods at both airports.
 One more thing to consider is how much traffic are you expecting? It's a monday, I can't say how accurate Flightaware is but for LOWI it only shows approx 10 Airline flight departing all day last monday for instance and similar during the week.

 As for LOWW, here's what I get on Monday at 0640am.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dlm4001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-06-2017 at 9:47pm
Ok this was very helpful.  I went to LOWW at 6:40 local and I had the same amount of traffic. I guess Innsbruck is not as busy as I remember it.  I will check Flight Aware for Salzburg as well.
 
Does UTL have the same traffic as UT2?
 
DM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave_YVRATC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-06-2017 at 10:45pm
Originally posted by dlm4001 dlm4001 wrote:

 
Does UTL have the same traffic as UT2?


 I don't use UT2 but I wouldn't think so as the capture dates aren't the same afaik. Innsbruck I would think would have more Winter traffic, and UTL includes a Summer schedule.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ScottecLEMD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2017 at 2:30am


This is from Flightaware for LOWI today! The departures board is pretty similar all week
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Astro_Liam View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Astro_Liam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2017 at 7:24am
Image taken approx 12:15BST *Note I had to add the Austrian Dash 8 paint
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dlm4001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2017 at 7:58am
Astro,
Very Nice.  this was UT Live?
Also, where did you get that Austrian repaint for the Dash 8?
Going to test at 12:00BST now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Astro_Liam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2017 at 8:07am
Originally posted by dlm4001 dlm4001 wrote:

Astro,
Very Nice.  this was UT Live?
Also, where did you get that Austrian repaint for the Dash 8?
Going to test at 12:00BST now.


place into the default DH4 folder - Rename the files inside the austrian livery too 
TFS_Q400_l   TFS_Q400_prop  & TFS_Q400_T

In the sim section of the text you add to the aircraft.cfg - sim=DH4

Assign the repaint in the UTL client for the Austrian Dash 8 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ScottecLEMD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2017 at 8:10am
Weird, as there are no easyjet or Transavia flights on the scheduled departures from Flightaware or Flightradar.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Astro_Liam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2017 at 8:14am
Originally posted by ScottecLEMD ScottecLEMD wrote:

Weird, as there are no easyjet or Transavia flights on the scheduled departures from Flightaware or Flightradar.

Hmmm they show on the UTL status board as well 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ScottecLEMD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2017 at 8:34am
Yep, guess the data snapshot was taken earlier in the season!

Strange to note however, that the inbound flight from Gatwick does not tie up with the outbound flight....I doubt very much that this is operated by two different aircraft.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dlm4001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2017 at 10:41am
ok,so I used the UTL Status Board to identify an Arriving Transavia Flight, I parked at the ramp and waited.  I watched the AI on FSCommander.  The incoming aircraft appeared on time and eventually landed.  So.. yay, I am convinced my installation is working as designed.
 
Now some behavior notes. (Maybe useful to devs and entertaining to others)
First, I am happy with UT products, and look forward to the final release of UTL.
I realize some of this may be a limitation of what is possible in FSX.
I have ORBX LOWI Installed with no static airlines or business jets.
I have Austria X PRO HD installed with LOWI Airport Scenery disabled (Switched BGL files to .off)
 
This was the Monday 2:05PM arrival of a Transavia 737-800
It approached from the East, descending and flying over the airport at 4000Ft.
(I thought it was going to do the Visual RW08 procedure... and got excited)
The plane turned to the North and began to climb, and ran through the mountain.
It continued to climb to 12,000ft and circle back to the west
On the second approach from the east, it went missed (GA aircraft on RW08R)
Repeated the through-the-mountain circle back to the west
NOW THE GOOD PART
The flight is now 5 minutes late and the status board still says on time (Still in the window)
On the third approach, there is a Beechcraft on final and the Transavia flight proceeds on long final.  I think, he is going to have to go around.  My battery dies and I can not listen to the tower :)
The Beechcraft is continuing roll out on RW08R and the 737 is on short final.... What?
The 737-800 lands on the RW08L  (The shortest grass RW) then rolls out through the hangers, trees and onto the highway!  That is some "on time" dedication!
He taxies to the gate and I am still laughing.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Astro_Liam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2017 at 1:07pm
You're battery dies? 

I watched some arrivals too, seemed the do a similar approach to 08.  ( I too was hoping for the Visual, just to see the carnage that would ensue)
I didnt have the issue of them landing on the grass though. Landed on 08 perfectly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dlm4001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2017 at 6:17pm
Yes, My battery dies.  I think it is in the realism settings. On the default 172 and my ASA 172R. 
Do you have ORBX LOWI installed?   I am thinking that may be the problem with them selecting RW08C or RW08L sometimes.   The 2:05 Transavia never chooses RW08R.  I ran that one 5 times.  I will turn off ORBX LOWI and try it again.
Also, the making turn for final at 11,000 ft is an issue.  The 737 would need to loose about 5000ft per minute to get to the runway.  Most of the time this particular arrival flies over at about 5000 and goes missed.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dlm4001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2017 at 6:32pm
Transavia 737-800 Short Field Operations. 
Ready on the Brakes!
 
SFO
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Astro_Liam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-08-2017 at 5:25am
I do have Orbx LOWI but I dont see this issue im afraid. All my AI Landings and Takeoffs use the proper runway. How strange. Do you have any other addons that could be causing this? Maybe a duplicate AFCAD somewhere
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dlm4001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-08-2017 at 9:58am
I am checking for duplicate AFCADs, (Thanks).  The add-ons that may be affecting it are ORBX European Airports (Freeware ones) and Austrian X Professional HD.
 
I thought I had disabled the LOWI related bgl files in both of these scenery products when I installed ORBX LOWI, but I must have missed something.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dlm4001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-09-2017 at 11:16am
Rarely do I let something get under my skin, but this is irritating.
Before I uninstall FSX and re-install, I thought I would post here again.
I am reluctant to post this in the Customer Supprot Forum, because I am not sure it is the UTL software or my FSX.
Is it possible that people who have this working, go to an airport and see planes and say it works?  I am doing a bit of Plane spotting, and it is not working that great for me.  I go to Munich and see planes everywhere. but I can not correlate there movements to what I am seeing on the status board.  (Possible clock problem?  See the last section of this post. )
So I go back to my little test case in LOWI.
 
I deactivated every add-on in my scenery library.  (Is it possible that and add-on put an AFCAD file somewhere I can not find it?)  I used the scenery scan tool and it found no duplicates.
Here is what I get at LOWI (FYI my FPS target in UTL is 6 and I am getting 55 to 60 FPS, so frame rate dropping of flights is not a problem.)
 
1. Planes land on RW08R and RW08L  airliners landing in the grass.  not good.
2. I look at the status board, see planes at the gate, look in the sim, sometimes they are there and sometimes they are not.
3.  I look at the status board and see planes that should be arriving.  I set the time to 30 minutes prior, wait and wait, No arrival (Using FSCommander and My Little Nav Map to monitor AI), and nothing happens in the sim.   Sometimes they will spawn in at the gate after the arrival time. I got to Munich and I see planes arriving and departing but not sure if they are all there.
So the next step is to blow away FSX and reinstall. (sighs.... so much work.)
The first part of troubleshooting is to identify the problem.  I can not put my finger on what it is doing.  just seems to randomly work, and when it does, the aircraft often overfly the airport at 4000 to 5000 foot over field elevation, or they land on the wrong runway at LOWI.
 
Figures the only place I want to fly doesn't really work that well. I am not saying this is a UTL problem, but I am not really having a lot of luck getting the type of experience I had with Ultimate Traffic (original) back in the day. If I could get it to work reliably, then I would not mind making all the missing aircraft assignments.  Coming back to flight sim, I bought a new IBuyPower machine with 16GB and Nvidia 1080I dropped a ton of cash on ORBX, mesh, and other add-ons.  Got the environment looking sweet and flying ASA 172R around Austria / Germany. Was really impressed with the experience. Then I started trying to get traffic back to where I had it years ago, and all the fun stopped.  :) 
 
The one other thing that is odd, that may or may not be related.  My Local time for Innsbruck is the same as GMT, which I know is not right.  I am not sure if this would through off the clock in UTL.
 all comments, advice and criticism welcomed.
DLM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrianT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-09-2017 at 2:48pm
I though I'd check timings and stuff in my P3dv4 setup to see if it was the same and I noticed that with the day in the sim set to Sunday 06/08/2017 the UTL client Status board thinks it's Monday 
If I open the UTL Status board from the application and set it to the same day as the UTL Client it shows departures whereas the Client does not.

So there's definitely an issue with dates although the time was correct 0400gmt 0600 local time and there is a discrepancy between the two UTL status boards.


Regards
Brian
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave_YVRATC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-09-2017 at 3:14pm
Just as a side note, LOWI is a notoriously bad place for AI plane spotting due to it's location with the high terrain nearby and lack of the usual 3 degree straight in approach. Best bet is to trouble shoot the AI movements concerning the Traffic board and schedules is to go somewhere where you have less terrain.
 Jim Vile made an incredible AFCAD for LOWI back in 2007 for FSX that was coded for the AI to shoot the approach accurately into LOWI and it worked wonders.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dlm4001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-09-2017 at 5:59pm
I determined that one for my problems was the time zone issue.  Apparently one of my add-ons ORBX (BASE, VECTORS EU_LC, EU Airports) Austria X Pro HD or ORBX LOWI did something to my timezone bgl and when I deactivate the add on scenery, it is always GMT everywhere.  I added two hours to the local clock for Innsbruck and actually saw a plane depart.
Having said that, I identified three different arrivals.  One just popped in at the gate, right on time.  (no flying in, just spawned).  The second landed on the grass runway, and the third missed approach three times (flyover at 4000+ ft.)  So remove complications...and I may regret this, I uninstalled everything including FSX.  I will install fresh and UTL, no other products and see what happens.  Luckily, I just did this machine and software build so I did not really lose anything other that a couple of hours of installing everything. I want to get the traffic sorted out before I get too far with my simulation of the whole planet!  (ok, maybe just Europe.)
NOTE:  I did get Dennis Thompson's Timezone 3 files for the fresh build. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dlm4001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-09-2017 at 6:09pm
Dave,
Noted, I will probably start testing at a regional airport north of the Alps.
I got the Jim Vile file you mentioned.  That sounds great.  Does anyone know if it will work with ORBX LOWI?   If not, I am going to test it. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave_YVRATC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-09-2017 at 7:55pm
Originally posted by dlm4001 dlm4001 wrote:

 Does anyone know if it will work with ORBX LOWI?


 It's extremely unlikely that it would work, but it could be a template to build on from the ORBX airport ADE file. While at it you would disable LOWI's grass runway preventing the AI from using it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dlm4001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-10-2017 at 12:43pm
This report has a lot of information in it.  UTL (Early Release) was released to get feedback, and I am doing that.  It is not negative feedback, just observed behavior that may help the developers, or other people who are not sure if what they are seeing in the sim is intended behavior.  
I did sort out that I had three different problems defined below. (one sorted, one figured out what is needed (not UTL issue) and one that is just strange behavior. (Could be a function of UTL or FSX AI engine. 
 
Here were the steps I followed to test:
All add-ons uninstalled
FSX Uninstalled
FSX Drive Formatted (I am not playing around)
Appdata FSX folder...   deleted
FSX save files deleted (after back up) off machine
reboot, check for ANY traces of FSX on drives and registry, clean
Installed FSX, checked that it loaded.
Installed Ultimate Traffic Live
Loaded FSX and verified I have traffic
Set to Airport LOWI, Ramp, Small GA, Monday, 1350local, expecting Transavia 738 arrival at 2:05 local
Transavia flight spawns in to the west, and is assigned RWO8L (short grass runway).
GA aircraft is about to take RW08R, so that is probably why RW08L is assigned. 
Transavia over at 4000ft and goes missed.
Circles back to the west, Business Jet makes approach and goes missed at about 50ft over the RW08L grass runway.
Transavia makes another approach, begins an earlier decent (flies through some mountains, which I know is normal) and then lands on RW08L rolling through the hangars and out into town., Taxies to the gate. (15 minutes late and status board always said "On Time")
I wanted to see if this was specific to this flight, so I let the sim run (while I was working on something else) and checked for the Easy A320 Arrival at 3:20 local.  It flew over at 4000ft attempting on RW08L.  Circled back to the west, made second attempt, and landed RW08L.
 
In both instances, a plane on the ground was about to take the active.  That makes me believe that this is just a function of the Airport AFCAD file.  I will attempt turning off RW08C and RW08L.  While typing this, I did see a business jet land RW08R. 
 
Fly overs from planes not getting down to glideslope.  I don't think this is normal, as in "fly to the airport and then circle back to approach" because the planes line up with the RW and lower their gear and flaps, and then call "Missed".  With everything else working, I can live with this oddity although I think it is something simple.
 
Summary:  Problem 1: Correlation between status board and In-SIM plane movement. This turned out to be an issue with Time zone files.  (Make sure your local offset is correct). This was created by installing an add-on that had its own TX file and then taking it back out.  IF this happens and you don't want to restore original FSX files, or re-install, use Dennis Thompson's Time Zone 3.0 files to fix.
 
Problem 2:  Traffic flying over at around 4000ft above the field and then coming back around to land.  This could be a function of the terrain around LOWI,  I am not sure, but they clear KTI at around 11,000ft on the first attempt and overfly, then fly through the mountain at around 8 or 9000ft the second time and land.
 
Problem 3:  Airliners landing on RW08L (Short Grass).   I think this is just and oddity of FSX.  When RWO8R is assigned to another aircraft, the tower assign RW08L to approaching aircraft. I will edit the AFCAD file If I can remember how, and report back one last time
 
DM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dlm4001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-11-2017 at 3:36pm
I got UTL making accurate approaches and landing to LOW from the west!   No more flyovers, no more going missed, no more attempts to land on the grass strips.  So I thought I would close out this thread and than the people who helped.

I researched the way FSX assigns runways and there are several factors.  One factor is an AI plane approaching gets the nearest runway if it is open. (there are a lot of other factors, but on a calm day, this is a big one).  With the LOWI default airport and the ORBX LOWI, the grass runways are set to NO for Primary and Secondary landing and take off, so, it is reasonable to think that this would over ride the direction of approach, but in airports with terrain, this does not seem to work well.   The UTL jets were approaching from the West and RW08L Visual was assigned.  Once I deleted the two grass runways in ADE, RW08R VISUAL was assigned and they over flew the airport.  It seems that UTL Jets assigned "visual" never landed.  (I think this conflicts with the IFR flight plan they had maybe?)  I have no idea what was going on there, but....

My Fix:  Do this at your own risk.  I installed ORBX LOWI. I made a second airport file to go in the ORBX LOWI folder. I used ADE to open the Airport Placement BGL, deleted the grass runways and compiled it with a different name (the default ADEX ADE name it gives it.)  I placed this file in the ORBX LOWI directory.  I left the original, as you need it to load ORBX library objects around the airport that the ADE one will not. I tried this in the add-on scenery directory, but it excludes the library objects (buildings) beneath it.  When I put it in the ORBX LOWI folder, I get all the objects, without RW08C and RW08L.  This does not affect the way the grass area looks because of the great textures in ORBX LOWI.

NOW all traffic lands.  Default and UTL AI arriving from the west approach at the right altitude and land RW08 (no more grass runway landings, no more high fly overs)  In fact, IFR traffic fly down the high side of the valley (south side) descending out 6000ft and turn for short final at about 3000.

For the original problem, I can't figure out why default AI was landing on the primary when arriving from the same direction, but the UTL AI behaved differently. It must have been in the flight planning. BUT, I have it working very nicely now, and just want to get back to flying.  Thanks for everyone's help. 

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